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HomeMusic TherapyAn interview with Dr. Daphne Rickson and Dr. Sarah Hoskyns. - WFMT...

An interview with Dr. Daphne Rickson and Dr. Sarah Hoskyns. – WFMT ECC interview



Penny Warren:

 Welcome to the World Federation Music Remedy Training and Certification Fee Video Sequence. The next video goals to offer an outline of music remedy coaching, training and growth of the career in Aotearoa New Zealand.

My identify is Penny Warren and I’m a member of the Training and Certification Fee of the World Federation of Music Remedy for 2020 to 2023. I’m thrilled to have the ability to introduce and speak with each Dr Daphne Rickson and Dr Sarah Hoskyns. So, just a bit bit about my beautiful interviewees right this moment.

 So, Sarah is the Programme Director of the two-year Grasp of Music Remedy Programme on the New Zealand College of Music, instructing Rules of Music Remedy, World Music and Music Remedy, and supervising observe and 2nd 12 months Masters Analysis Tasks in music remedy. Sarah is an skilled practitioner, trainer, and researcher in music remedy, and was beforehand Head of the Music Remedy Programme on the Guildhall College of Music and Drama, in London till 2005. Sarah’s doctoral analysis makes use of qualitative case research methodology, to discover perceptions concerning the integration of observe and analysis within the coaching of Masters college students in music remedy.

And Daphne, Hi there! Daphne’s a registered music therapist and he or she’s additionally Adjunct Professor within the New Zealand College of Music at Victoria College of Wellington. She certified as a music therapist within the Nineties, by what’s now Music Remedy New Zealand. Daphne joined the Nationwide Council of Music Remedy New Zealand in 1993. She was Council Chair from 1997 to 2002 and President from 2008 to 2012. Daphne has been instrumental in guaranteeing that music therapists had been recognised inside the New Zealand particular training system, the institution of the Music Remedy Registration Board, reviewing the Music Remedy New Zealand Requirements of Apply, and the initiation of the Grasp of Music Remedy Programme on the New Zealand College of Music in 2003. Daphne achieved New Zealand’s first PhD in Music Remedy in 2010. Following the fifteenth of March 2019 terrorist assault in Christchurch, New Zealand, she supported the event of Music Remedy New Zealand’s Aotearoa Disaster Intervention Working Group. Daphne is presently the Australasian Regional Liaison for the World Federation of Music Remedy Council. She’s not too long ago retired from her full time, tenured place lecturing and researching in music remedy after 15 years of scientific observe and 17 years in academia.

So welcome to you each. Good to have you ever right here.

 OK after that beautiful introduction to you each, and thanks for being a part of this video collection, I ponder if Daphne, you possibly can share with us concerning the growth of music remedy in New Zealand?

Daphne Rickson:

Positive and thanks Penny. It’s beautiful to be right here with you and Sarah.

 After I skilled in 1988, there was no tertiary music remedy programme in New Zealand as you have got already advised. There have been a handful of music therapists who had travelled overseas to coach in Australia, Canada, England, and america.  Music Remedy New Zealand had began to facilitate what was known as a music therapists accreditation programme. Now this accreditation programme concerned working by individualised programmes for candidates. So, credit had been earned by attending programs which culminated within the writing of a considerable essay, finishing music abilities examinations, presenting oral and written case research, and doing a small analysis undertaking. After which we additionally had an oral examination which was facilitated by examiners from fields of music remedy , in addition to psychology.

So, I attended 4 or 5 of those programs which had been often supplied yearly. And so they had been residential in nature, so that they ran for as much as 5 days. So this meant that we had been working with our facilitators and friends for at the least 40 hours, and we may use our time comparatively flexibly. We had the chance for experiencing group processing  and different issues as a crew. And the course numbers had been small, so the content material could possibly be individualised, and we had good alternatives for experiential studying.

 So, it was a really totally different manner of coaching to what’s supplied at universities. And it was a very long time earlier than we truly bought the course established. As I mentioned 1988 I began coaching. So, in 1992, quickly after I had begun coaching I joined Music Remedy NZ Council.

 I feel that this stuff are actually essential as a result of the way in which during which music remedy develops in nations the place you understand it’s not well-known in any respect is by individuals discovering their very own methods to coach and likewise discovering their very own methods to be political advocates. The Music Remedy Council consisted of music therapists in addition to buddies of music remedy who had been working laborious to develop music remedy on this nation. And the form of issues we did was bringing out worldwide music remedy clinicians, researchers, and educators for the coaching, for convention displays and workshops, {and professional} growth. And we did a whole lot of work selling the nationwide consciousness and understanding of music remedy by visiting establishments and authorities departments. So, we might go to universities, we might go and current to the Minister of Training, and the Minister for Well being, to extend this consciousness. After which we began growing paperwork for, and with, authorities just like the {Qualifications} Authority, and ultimately the Committee for the Universities Tutorial Programmes. However we additionally had our personal Registration Board. An unbiased Registration Board, earlier than even the course began. So, we developed the Registration Board in 2000.

 So, within the early days, individuals didn’t know a lot about music remedy in any respect. There have been only a handful of us right here. It was essential to point out potential employers what is likely to be doable. So, I did this by participating in small items of professional bono work along with something that I may receives a commission for. And this sort of progressively turned bigger items of employment for me and for different music therapists. And all of us gave common displays, and we offered at conferences. Not music remedy conferences, however particular training conferences um and so forth. And, I feel one other actually essential factor to say earlier than I hand over to Sarah, is that in 1999 the Council supported me to do a tour, and to attend the ninth World Congress of Music Remedy in Washington. So, I used to be capable of go to a number of locations world wide. After which, whereas I used to be in Washington, I used to be capable of make private contact with music remedy lecturers from a number of nations. And it gave me an actual worldwide perspective on music remedy training and coaching. And I collected data for Council, like music remedy course content material and construction, supervision points, and wage scales. And I made robust contacts internationally with colleagues whom Council may name on for recommendation in future. So, you understand there was a whole lot of work that was completed, and earlier than me too in fact. Earlier than 1988, once I began, the place my curiosity in music remedy began.  Music Remedy  New Zealand was formally fashioned in 1974, so,  you understand,  there was a whole lot of work previous to what I’ve described as effectively.  I feel it’s actually essential to carry that in thoughts.

Lastly, in 2003, the Grasp of Music Remedy programme was established at Massey [University] underneath the directorship of Robert Krout, and after Robert returned to the States, Affiliate Professor Sarah Hoskyns arrived. So, I’m going handy over to Sarah to inform us a bit extra about how the programme’s developed since then.

Penny Warren:

Thanks Daphne. Wow, it’s actually fascinating to listen to that historical past. Thanks

Sarah Hoskyns:

Okay, so, I arrived in New Zealand at the start of 2005, and I used to be in the course of serving to develop programs in the direction of Masters stage pondering,  from postgraduate diploma. Which wasn’t the case for each course within the UK. However at the moment, I feel over 5 – 6 programs. And Anglia Ruskin College was the college that  first established a Masters course. However on the Guildhall College of Music, I used to be concerned in, and in growing the Masters coaching. And it was actually fascinating to have the chance to see what one other course was doing in a foreign country, round this concept of constructing scientific experience but additionally maintaining analysis as a part of it. And I feel I’d been pondering rather a lot about how does analysis occur? How one can coach individuals in the direction of it? As a result of I feel I’d had a type of fascinating relationship with analysis in my very own profession. Of in all probability being actually fairly sensible particular person total, however at all times having an curiosity in analysis.

 So, I type of arrived at the start of the coaching course after Robert, Daphne and Morva Croxson, had been working actually laborious to determine the course in a safe college setting. And will I simply observe, they did a particularly good job as a result of they created a scenario the place there have been two lecturers. And I feel initially, Daphne’s place was one the place it was yearly renewed. However I feel there was at all times the framework that there’s work for two lecturers to assist the expansion in understanding. And I feel having a couple of particular person has at all times felt prefer it’s a extremely wholesome area, as a result of I feel between the 2 of us during the last 16 and 17 years, we purchased totally different strengths and totally different pursuits. And um, simply I suppose, college students are assorted varieties of individuals, and so are we, simply in numerous areas of scientific work, and pursuits in analysis that is likely to be complementary. Like they’re an essential a part of each college students in coaching, but additionally serving to the career develop right here. So, there was a robust foundation for, you understand, respecting analysis as a part of the college coaching framework.

I feel it’s been fascinating that it was arrange in that manner as a result of in within the UK they had been all begun as practitioner coaching programs and progressively analysis was established.

So, I feel the New Zealand course began in an fascinating place in world historical past of what coaching was like, and I used to be very excited to be a part of this. You realize, it was effectively established right here and I ought to say, with a whole lot of data and experience, each from Robert Krout’s expertise in America but additionally Denise Grocke’s expertise in Australia, which purchased a form of robust Australasian set of knowledges, and the way the course was going to be. So yeah, I imply, and it was fascinating coming from one other custom since you realise it takes a very long time to grasp how cultures are constructed and developed. And so listening to Daphne’s description of it, and in each scenario, it’s an essential problem to attempt to dovetail the way in which you prepare to the tradition of the place. And you understand, New Zealand has a small inhabitants that’s fairly broadly unfold so it’s one thing that we had to consider. And we’re notably occupied with it in the meanwhile as we try to useful resource music remedy around the nation, in rural areas in addition to metropolis areas.

 I’ll take a pause as there’s tons to say, however I feel Daphne might have some ideas concerning the precise coaching. So, what sort of programs we’ve and the way in which we’re approaching that, which is likely to be a helpful subsequent step.

Daphne Rickson:

Positive.  I feel the bottom, the core of what we attempt to do might be, you understand, similar to different programs world wide. The place we clearly have to have very versatile music abilities. And possibly that’s one thing that we may focus on for only a second. The place initially there was fairly a spotlight in our programme on westernised music abilities and {qualifications} that go together with that. So, there was an expectation initially that there can be, {that a} candidate would have music {qualifications}. And we recognised that the flexibleness and the flexibility to improvise, and to be versatile and adaptive with music, was actually essential. However music is central to what we do. Understanding music remedy ideas is central to what we do. Understanding and having the ability to be a very good researcher is central to what we do. And I feel the individuality comes by culturally associated practices all through what we do. And I feel that’s actually essential that we don’t simply assume that, you understand, we’ve a World Music’s course, which we do have, however more and more looking for out how which may centre uniquely round New Zealand Māori and Pasifika music and values and cultures. However that that isn’t one thing that we put into the course and depart it . And that’s what we educate to. However, you understand, we very strongly maintain the worth that you understand, the New Zealand tradition, and Māori and Pasifika tradition, must permeate what we do. So, there’s a whole lot of standardised issues in there, however all of them have a really distinctive New Zealand focus.

Do you need to decide up there once more Sarah?

Sarah Hoskyns:

 So, the programs that Daphne’s talked about simply now embody a Rules course. I feel she was implying a Strategies course utilizing assorted musical strategies and exploring that in an experiential manner amongst teams of scholars. That’s our preliminary introduction to the sector and the programme. And I discover, curiously, that extra time, and the variety of theories that we take into consideration, and introduce to college students, has developed in an essential manner. So, we attempt to introduce college students to world authorities on music remedy and take a look at how their theories are getting used. And we in all probability began off with three or 4, and we are actually  utilizing seven, eight or 9 main theories of how music remedy is practiced in numerous fields of labor.

I also needs to point out the various vary of placements which Daphne and Penny have been concerned in serving to us recruit from totally different areas round Wellington, the place we’re based mostly, but additionally across the nation. And we’ve tried our greatest to make it possible for we symbolize well being areas, non-government organisations, training, some justice areas, and group based mostly suppliers. And I feel we’re happy with having a very good vary of these, within the hope that these will keep it up to be areas of employment for college kids. So, there’s been a robust deal with making an attempt to be actually pragmatic about introducing music remedy to the scholars in a spread of settings after which hoping that these will keep it up. And I feel each of you in all probability agree that we’ve had some fairly various and fascinating placements. We’ve bought placements in kids’s wards in hospitals, we used one of many native prisons final 12 months, typically in drug and alcohol assist, positively in colleges, in mainstream colleges and specialist colleges, in some acute areas of well being and adolescent well being. You possibly can in all probability add some others, each of you. Nevertheless it’s been actually fascinating seeing who’s about it. There’ve been way more requests about it now as a result of I feel the phrase has begun to unfold and individuals are extra conscious of it.

However, once I first arrived there have been 17 music therapists registered, and it’s pleasant to see we’re nearer the 80-90 stage. And naturally, it takes time, however, you understand it does really feel like we’re higher identified and we really feel extra strongly grounded within the registration course of.

Penny Warren :

 I used to be while you had been speaking concerning the influence early on, of the totally different cultural approaches to music remedy. So, you talked about Denise Grocke and Robert Krout particularly. So, how has that developed and altered, or is it very related?

Sarah Hoskyns:

New influences on..? Properly, I suppose, what’s been fascinating lately, has been having visiting music therapists who both examined our college students, or have taken a job in visiting our coaching course. I keep in mind Daphne had Barbara Wheeler come and speak to some courses and Mike Viega has a whole lot of affect on our occupied with arts-based analysis. And I keep in mind, again within the day, that Mercédès Pavlicevic was an essential affect. And I suppose it goes again to what Daphne mentioned earlier on concerning the significance of worldwide guests for the unique accreditation course. However in current occasions our examiners and visiting lecturers have locations in our course and have influenced us. I feel Professor Kat McFerran and Felicity Baker have each had a robust affect on us by collaborating in analysis and performing as visiting researchers and being advisors to, you understand, the entire body of the varsity. So, Felicity did that job for us in current occasions. So, I feel {our relationships} with exterior our bodies has felt actually essential. I’ve named a couple of in the meanwhile however I feel we’ll all consider particular person influences of our exterior worldwide colleagues that they felt actually essential. I’ve just one hyperlink specifically with Professor Lesley Bunt. Who I consider skilled Penny again in Bristol.

Penny Warren: No you skilled me at Guildhall

Sarah Hoskyns: I skilled you. Oh yeh, however Leslie was there (laughter)

Penny Warren: However he was there sure (laughter)

Sarah Hoskyns:

 However you labored in Bristol, didn’t you. ….I do do not forget that I skilled you (laughter)…. Yeh, so Leslie and I’ve talked over time about other ways during which our personal experiences have influenced our instructing and studying. And Leslie is a Guided Imagery and Music practitioner and has fairly robust hyperlinks with Denise.  I feel, you understand, I’m conscious of these influences which make me assume and encourage college students to go and take an curiosity and pursue these sorts of hyperlinks. They get excited by it, and it appears essential to their early observe. And our course has grown as an eclectic coaching course, um, which has had affect from numerous areas.

Now I ponder if Daphne wish to inform us a bit extra about Neighborhood Music Remedy and your consultancy work, which I feel has influenced our coaching rather a lot.

Daphne Rickson:

Positive. I feel, simply so as to add to what you’ve mentioned that, our college students analysis, in addition to our personal intensive analysis, actually does information our instructing. And as you mentioned, you understand, my expertise, which was each observe based mostly and analysis based mostly Of beginning out pondering how can we offer music remedy to individuals in geographically dispersed areas, ended up in being analysis round consultancy. Which strikes you to occupied with Neighborhood Music Remedy, after which we’re working with susceptible individuals which strikes us to consider Essential Incapacity Research. And so, simply, you understand, remaining completely immersed in our personal analysis and observe and actually encouraging our college students to discover other ways of trying on the practices that they’re doing on placement. And researching the practices that they’re doing and placement as effectively, has actually saved us shifting and increasing and rising I feel in a extremely thrilling manner.

However I simply surprise if I may only for a second return to placements. As a result of I feel one of many issues that is likely to be actually essential for people who find themselves growing music remedy of their nations is to contemplate, is the concept there gained’t be supervisors for placements while you first got down to do them. And we’ve needed to discover actually accountable professionals inside the organisations who’re keen to take our college students. Desirous to take our college students. So, we’re utilizing different professionals; allied well being professionals, or medical, or academic professionals, who present supervision for the scholars whereas they’re on placement. With at all times a music therapist from the course, or an exterior music therapist, as a further supervisor. However that’s the mannequin that we’ve had to make use of as a result of we will’t simply put college students straight in to work with one other music therapist. And I additionally assume it’s been fairly an thrilling dilemma that we do have a whole lot of organisations and establishments who ask for music remedy college students. So, they’re clearly beginning to see the worth of the work. And it’s not troublesome in any respect to position college students. However there additionally must be fairly a stability of, you understand, responding to that request after which ensuring that that turns into paid employment and that, you understand, these locations don’t proceed to get perpetual college students.  So, you understand, work creation, as Sarah alluded to. Making an attempt to make sure that college students create work from their placements. You realize, that they will keep on after they’ve completed some good work there and be paid for it’s one in every of our objectives too.

Penny Warren:

 Sure, and I feel what’s fascinating is, as was talked about earlier, that the variety of music therapists has elevated since Sarah’s moved right here. So, we’re now presumably round 80 music therapists thereabouts, from say, 17. And due to this fact, that signifies that there’s in all probability been an important unfold of um, the event of locations that individuals are truly working in, by way of music remedy. And will you simply say somewhat bit about that, your observations?

Sarah Hoskyns:  

Can I simply say one factor about that, is that the place we started, as Daphne’s alluded, with principally putting college students the place there isn’t any music therapist. Nevertheless it’s now a way more luxurious scenario the place we will truly place college students alongside an skilled particular person. And that in fact may be very priceless for college kids to achieve that advantage of seeing anyone who has bought a framework established and is ready to information them round insurance policies and practices. However I suppose college students have additionally actually impressed us with their skill to make use of that type of fairly versatile sensible coaching, to dovetail it into their very own work. And we’ve been actually impressed by a number of particular person music therapists who’ve arrange very, very succesful companies, that are sustainable and more likely to earn an affordable dwelling. Though we’d at all times want that they earnt extra money. And will additionally create developmental alternatives for work. So, I feel that we’re at that stage now the place it might be very nice to have the ability to reward individuals for his or her sustained observe and to have greater stage of duties. However we’re very happy with the work that our graduates produce. And individuals are happening to proceed analysis too, in order that’s thrilling with individuals coming again to do PhD’s.  So, a number of pondering in developmental phrases about how analysis would possibly transfer ahead on this nation.

Penny Warren: Sure, and it’s an enormous a part of the coaching as effectively.

Sarah Hoskyns: Positive, sure

Penny Warren: Did you need to add anything Daphne?

Daphne Rickson: I can’t consider something proper now. As quickly as we shut I’ll (snicker)

Penny Warren:

In fact, in fact. We in all probability all will. However I’m simply conscious that we’re coming to the top of time and I need to thanks each for being accessible and sharing all of your experiences. So thanks  very a lot.



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